VHS Transfers & Quality [moved from the Van Halen Largo thread]

[retired]

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

I guess you didnt try and download the manual then.

Link?

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

What matters is im getting the results im looking for.

Check this out:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hods?p=1961020
What do you think of Lordsmurf's opinion on the ADVC300?

I pretty much think any VHS no matter if its 1st gen or multi generated would benefit from the filters and encoding quality of this machine.

Nice job of providing a link to furthur legitimize that you standalone capture is the worst way possible...which is ok, you've found what you're striving for

Originally Posted by lordsmurf post 7

Your capture format won't be the same as your encoded format. You want to minimize quality losses at each stage, so avoid capturing with MPEG2.

Originally Posted by lordsmurf post 11

For the "best" work, filter as much as you can before the computer gets the video. Proc amps, detailers, TBC, good VCR, etc

MPEG is not bad for capturing unless you're just compressing it to DVD specs AND plan to re-encode it later.

[sabkisscrue]

Took a little bit of trouble, but I was able to download a pdf file of the manual.

http://safemanuals.com/user-guide-in.../DCR-TRV740-_S

Originally Posted by retired

Nice job of providing a link to furthur legitimize that you standalone capture is the worst way possible...which is ok, you've found what you're striving for

I think what you said here is at the very least absurd.
It would be best for your vhs tapes, to adopt my choice of equipment and my methods of transfer. In fact, im willing to prove that, if you let me transfer any of your vhs tapes shot by the Tripod Guy, I will get better results than you have. No matter the condition of the tape or the generation.

But lets also understand something, I never asked nor needed your advice or assessment, AAR's either. You have a right to your opinion though. The fact is im willing to prove it.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

are there other devices available that would improve picture quality even further while still staying within a low-end budget? yes

And your answer to that, is the filters of the ADVC300. Which in Lordsmurf's opinion they suck and should be turned off.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

4. your standalone recorder [JVC DRM100] and most standalones out there capture at Half D1

This is not a fact.
This is gotten beyond absurd now.
Ive bit my tongue long enough.
Fact is, I get the results im looking for.
Not that it matters, but ive not seen any results you have gotten (im not sure if he did in fact transfer the Tripod Guy stuff, but if he did I know I could produce better results from the same tapes, try me).
I understand what you have to say though when it comes to switching vcrs and controlling the filters and thats something ive been well aware of for sometime now. You are not telling me anything I dont know.

The point is, you need an aggressive amount of filtering to clean up vhs chroma and luminance noise.
My equipment does the job, period and im willing to prove that.

[sabkisscrue]

Btw,
Going out on a limb here and assuming he did the transfers he uploaded shot by the Tripod Guy.

This is the equipment he used:

JVC HR-S9911U > Monster M2000HDSV S-Video Cable > Canopus ADVC300

The 9911 is considered the worse out of all the 9000 model JVC SVHS's with TBC/DNR, in terms of build quality. The best being the 9600 and the 9800 (which I use).

Monster is not the best cables. In fact, these are considered to be some of the crappiest cables out there.

Canopus ADVC300, is also considered by someone whos opinion I respect as he was dead on about the filters and encode quality of the DRM100, that the filters on this suck and should be turned off. You cannot rely on the filters alone of the 9911 though. You need additional filters, such as the DRM100, etc.

[Limulus]

hello, into dvdr (hobby) authoring since early 2003 myself, still constantly doing transfers video and audio. the quality issue has always been an interesting subject to me. no time to go into all the details here, lots of good stuff being mentioned allready and also some i dont agree with, but when going for the subjective matter of quality i would like to add and recommend this:

if you have an (to you) important vhs source and have some lets say semi-pro equipment from wich you are getting nice results in general:
do multiple transfers!!

from my experience there is no way to have ONE standard set-up which works best for every vhs. it might give some standard "ok" transfer but when wanting the best you will get significantly different results often when doing different tranfers you can compare. this means: change vcr settings, vcrs, cables, filters etc. from the same source vhs!
for example lets take a TBC: TBC1000 here....it gives an inferior result most of the time, in my opinion TBCs (also internal vcr tbcs) mostly fuck up the image in some bad way (then again its needed at points like having a troubled vhs where a non TBC capture gives many dropped frames) BUT i also have a few shows where the dvdr simply looks best when using this device! at other points a cheaper vcr (JVC3500) is far sharper than my JVC 9600, another time my stand alone-recorder dvdr looks better than an DV/PC-transfer encoded 9pass, its kinda.....you never know exactly which transfer works best for the source vhs. so if you are willing to go for this, you gotta take the time to do multiple transfers and compare them. if this effort is not an issue you still could at least do some tests yourself like taking an unimportant vhs and try like 1min captures in different ways (tbc on, tbc off, NR on, NR off....different cables etc.) and compare them exactly on dvdrw and tv(!), then decide what way works best for you and stick to that.

[bigwurock]

i have done a few transfers here..by no means not with anything pro equipment.....
i use....

jvc super vhs hr-s3800u>s-video>canopus advc100>firewire>pc>vegas6......

by any means pro...no...good results...yea pretty good....the one reason i like the canopus is not just for the filters but the audio lock..which after playing a 2 hour vhs the audio could drift...

i think alot that people have forgot about transferring vhs is that you can only get the best result on how good the vhs is that you have...ex. how good is that 2nd gen vhs you have? how were the first 2 copies made..?..age of vhs, how many times has the vhs been played..ect...was the first copy off the master done good? i have seen 4th gen vhs that look better than 2nd gen..so alot depends on the right coping of the vhs too..

since i really don't follow up on standalone recorders i don't know alot of details about them...though they do remind of the cheap-lazy way to transfer...lol...are they the worst quality...?...thats all debateable...i have seen some really good quality shows made from them but i never saw the vhs they came from so i am assuming the vhs was really good quality by itself...not knocking them but not what i prefer to use..the one i had was pretty basic...you could not adjust the true bitrate..only could to 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hour and 4 hour...and plus you can only do ac3 audio...which in itself is worthless....that was about 4 years ago so not sure if you can adjust bitrate and use lpcm audio now with a standalone..?...

why i think pc is better..first of all i use vegas6...yep still stuck on vegas6..just that i like it so well and never really upgraded...vegas is considered a very good video editing software that by itself beats a standalone recording right there....vegas you can crop and adjust the video..the whole thing or parts, i can put in new audio that is better than the master source (usually anyways), i can split the video if needed..say if there is a pause or frames missing...you can still use the new audio and fill in the video with whatever you want..stills or moving pictures...i can adjust the bitrate to anything i want to..can use lpcm audio..i can edit colors ect..but i usually don't cause then you run into the new debate of everyones tv is set up differently...i can go on and on with options in vegas...

what really bugs me the most of what people transfer is that some don't use the best audio possible...why in the world do you want to use ac3 audio on a show you work hard on and then put crappy ac3 on it...sometimes it can't be helped but for the most part that people author stuff up on standalone keep that junk ac3 audio on it...people that even run vegas or anyother pc program still use ac3...why..?...granted there are times where it cannot be helped but most of the time it can...can go on here also....lol

the lineage really confuses me here too...

Lineage: Master Reels (3/4 inch tape) > Master VHS > 1st gen 8mm >
Sony TRV-740 Digital8 Camera with TBC/DNR > firewire > JVC DRM-100 Dvd Recorder >
XP mode > 2 dvd-r SA Authored with ac3 audio > Reauthored on a DUAL LAYER by Skulljam9 without Re-Encoding

there can only be 1 "master" but in lossless state, copies should be as good as the master if done right...but not in this case...reminds me of the old days of audio when DAT was being used...people would label their analog tapes this way..DAT>cassette master...it is not a master from the show..maybe a master of a different source..??..this all gets debatable too...not sure how you get a master vhs off of master reels..?..

anyways i can go on and on...these are all opinions and thats all...

[AAR.oner]

lordsmurf lordsmurf lordsmurf, for fuck's sake -- the guy's name is Lord and smurf and you think he walks on water?!?!?!


1. obviously every little bit of information you get comes from videohelp.com
2. obviously when it comes to video editing, the real experts only post at videohelp.com
3. obviously if yer happy with the results, there's no reason to try and improve and there are no better routes
4. when in doubt, stick yer head up yer ass, ignore the world, and post a link to videohelp.com

i think that about sums it up -- textbook n00b 101 shit...i've got to forward this stuff on to some other folks i know cuz its classic! but by all means, you and Lordsmurf are the experts



i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers t himself as "lordsmurf"...when there's numerous people saying somethin, its worth a look...when a majority of the field agrees, i'll take it as a given

so sorry, no i don't really give much weight to Lordsmurf's opinion...nor do i need you, someone who's never worked in the field, to validate whether my SVHS deck is "professional" or not [again you skirt technical issues by making attacks, pretty obvious and weak]...

the deal is is no one else around here agrees with you, no one believes using 10+ yo outdated gear made for consumers is gonna give you better results than a dedicated transfer station -- even the people d/ling yer supposed upgrade thought it was worse than the other upgrade circulating...when the whole worlds telling you yer wrong, ya might wanna listen



don't come whining when sites like this don't allow you to seed yer shows anymore -- because just like MiniDisc, standalone transfers will be seen to the door for what they are, inferior..."i recorded a show on my phone, its mp3 but it sounds good to me" -- sorry no...the "its good enough for me" defense holds no weight!

the good part is we wanted to use this discussion to show some of the typical misinformation circulating within the amateur VHS transferring circles, so that others might learn what to do and what not to do [and how not to act]...i think you pretty much played the part i knew you would

[AAR.oner]

cheers for chiming in wu & Limulus

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers t himself as "lordsmurf"...when there's numerous people saying somethin, its worth a look...when a majority of the field agrees, i'll take it as a given

Lordsmurf is not a nobody. Remember, he makes his living doing what you and I are talking about.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

so sorry, no i don't really give much weight to Lordsmurf's opinion...nor do i need you, someone who's never worked in the field, to validate whether my SVHS deck is "professional" or not [again you skirt technical issues by making attacks, pretty obvious and weak]...

When did I attack you?

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

the deal is is no one else around here agrees with you

Doesnt matter if they agree or not.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

no one believes using 10+ yo outdated gear made for consumers is gonna give you better results than a dedicated transfer station

Doesnt matter what anyone believes.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

even the people d/ling yer supposed upgrade thought it was worse than the other upgrade circulating

Remember, those were the same people who didnt see anything wrong with the previous version.

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

don't come whining when sites like this don't allow you to seed yer shows anymore

Whats that supposed to mean?

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

standalone transfers will be seen to the door for what they are, inferior

This is what someone who I know just wrote:

Originally Posted by Limulus

another time my stand alone-recorder dvdr looks better than an DV/PC-transfer encoded 9pass

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

the good part is we wanted to use this discussion to show some of the typical misinformation circulating within the amateur VHS transferring circles

I gotta tell you, I let you give me advice because you said you were a professional and im hugely disappointed, not because you insulted me but because I didnt learn anything new.
As far as being called an "amateur".
I wont even bother to respond to that.

[awolfoutwest]

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Im sure youd agree with me as you been doing this since 2004, that not all tapes should have the tbc/dnr engaged. I use the 9800, and it works with some tapes and some it doesnt.

Yep, I've found that as well. I just cut & pasted that capture chain data from a recent release that employed it.

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

Which ones do you use? Id really suggest you try the very affordable Acoustic Research PRO II Series. Youd be very pleased.

I have Acoustic Research PRO II cables as well, and I do indeed like them

Originally Posted by sabkisscrue

In my research, I dont believe pro equipment is the way to go, it was suggested pro svhs decks were the best, that turned out to be false. It should be about what works BEST, IMO.

Any blanket statement like that is bound to be flawed. I agree with the last statement about what works best, but you'll find arguments for both sides of the pro vs. consumer debate depending on the specific make & model of equipment you're discussing.

I also have a Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD Recorder, but I never use it for capture. I never knew it had any filtering or pass-thru capability, because it was just a replacement for the old home theater VCR. It does have an adjustable record length function, so you can optimize bitrate. I did do a side by side comparison of record quality a couple of years ago, but my PC capture blew away the standalone so I never gave it a second thought.

My preferred method is to capture to avi, spend some time looking at different filter results, then encode with the best processing I can determine for that video. I look at the video through software Vectorscope and Waveform Monitor apps to see how the color ranges conform to broadcast standards, then tweak black level and other proc amp stuff as needed. I wouldn't want to rely on a solely hardware chain because I can't go back and tweak things later.

Many folks who transfer to PC use a DV-based NLE program for capture, editing and encoding. For me, even the intermediate compression of analog > DV is to be avoided. DV is a lossy codec, even though I've seen assertions of DV being lossless more times than not. Digital video is more like 248600kbps for uncompressed RGB, 165800kbps for uncompressed YUY2, around 50000kbps using HuffYUV lossless YUY2 codec (my method), DV-AVI (Sony Digital Video standard) is 25000kbps, and DVD standard allows for 10080kbps. Sony DV is often thought of as lossless, but it is actually very lossy. (Note: all video numbers above based on a resolution of 720 x 480. PAL video would be approximately 20% larger.)

Here is a restoration sample from my latest release (141MB). The section from 1:20 to 1:40 has raw cap to final processed video side-by-side. Remember when watching this clip on an LCD monitor it will likely appear dark. I do my color correction using a calibrated CRT. Most consumer LCD monitors are unreliable for color. LCD monitors with accurate color representation are available, but quite expensive last I checked.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

obviously if yer happy with the results, there's no reason to try and improve and there are no better routes

Even though you have a great deal of nerve, you did say that and that sums it up best.

[sabkisscrue]

Originally Posted by awolfoutwest

I have Acoustic Research PRO II cables as well, and I do indeed like them

Wow and cool about the ES10, too.

[awolfoutwest]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

lordsmurf lordsmurf lordsmurf, for fuck's sake -- the guy's name is Lord and smurf and you think he walks on water?!?!?! [snip] i'm sorry but just because some random nobody, and i mean nobody, says something on a BB, that doesn't make it true -- not me, not you, and certainly not a guy who refers to himself as "lordsmurf"

Why focus on his screen name? Totally irrelevent. Kevin (lordsmurf) is a really nice guy who I've corresponded with occasionally since I started transferring. I can't vouch for his credentials, but he isn't just spouting bad info. He is in the commercial video field, and much of what he says is verifiable and sound. Has he been in error on some things? Yes, but so have you and I. The info he provides is just that - another voice to be compared with other knowledgeable voices to form a consensus. No single source should be relied upon, in my opinion. He is genuinely trying to help the online video community and doesn't deserve to be dragged through the mud because you're frustrated.

[AAR.oner]

nothing to do with nerve, it has to do with you and the :woosh: syndrome


much like the CoolEdit remasterers, you simply will never get it...enjoy!

[AAR.oner]

Originally Posted by awolfoutwest

Why focus on his screen name? Totally irrelevent. Kevin (lordsmurf) is a really nice guy who I've corresponded with occasionally since I started transferring. I can't vouch for his credentials, but he isn't just spouting bad info. He is in the commercial video field, and much of what he says is verifiable and sound. Has he been in error on some things? Yes, but so have you and I. The info he provides is just that - another voice to be compared with other knowledgeable voices to form a consensus. No single source should be relied upon, in my opinion. He is genuinely trying to help the online video community and doesn't deserve to be dragged through the mud because you're frustrated.

nothing against him personally, i got frustrated with sabkisscrue's incessant "lordsmurf" name drops and with the constant ignoring of fact [data, specs, etc] for subjective opinion and speculation...as quite a few have pointed out, trying to discuss anythng with sabkisscrue/deuce8pro/etc is like running in circles banging yer head against a wall...i was hoping he'd prove them wrong...oh well by gones

but i sincerely apologize if it came off as "dragging him [lordsmurf] through the mud"...i don't doubt his experience & knowledge, but i also don't know him or can vouch that his word means anything [lets face it, videohelp.com isn't exactly the online hub of video professional worldwide ]...and i certainly ain't gonna take the constant referencing of one person's opinion as the end-all-be-all, cuz as you accurately pointed out -- there's a lot of expert voices

we've all been wrong, and we all know that there's no press-a-button-done solution...don't take my ord on anything, GO OUT AND TRY DIFFERENT METHODS! but there are general rules-of-thumb, & i'll stick with the methods & opinions of a) the people i know personally who do this in far higher capacities than i, b) personal experience & training, and c) the overall consensus of the professional video community

those who wanna ignore everything but their way, by all means...slainte!