Can 'audio watermarks' be banned...?

[Five]

presenting thetooleman managed by bobby "the weasel" heenan.

aside from you two the entire world is offended. everybody with common sense. even the people without (not naming any names here...)

where is he? talk to us, bro this is a social site and we want to meet you

[mudshark68]

As requested by Five here's my opinion on the "watermark".
In this instance it occurs about 10 seconds before the transition from the intro music (Close Encounters) to Siberian Khatru. In this case I'll probably delete the intro and let the show start abruptly with SK. If it were between SK and HotS, I probably wouldn't keep the files or look for a way to edit it out with EAC. Either way, seems kinda a shame to do this to an otherwise high quality recording (judging from tracks 1 & 2 anyway).

BTW, the watermark itself ("The Tooleman" in a deep voice) sounds, well, kinda toolish imo.

[rspencer]

Originally Posted by Five

well okay but also can you add a bonus track at the end telling your memories of the show? like a dvd bonus feature, yeah, I can live with this.

anybody else like this idea?

If freezer wanted to do that, yeah, that would be killer. I often find the stories as much if not more entertaining than the show. The music history buff in me loves 'em. He was there, I wasn't, so it's cool to hear about it firsthand from the guy that taped the show.

Hell, I even dig the stories about shows when I don't particularly care for the band. I almost feel like I've been to A Warehouse just based on his descriptions.

[Chrisedge]

Freezer is an extreme...If you wonder where the original is, you're demanding it. If you ever traded for Millard recording, you had a hand in creating it.

Freezer, I actually don't mind you trading the way YOU want, but it seems like to you, that everyone on earth that would simply like a recording at any point, they are demanding it INSTANTLY.

You crack me up.

[chinajoe]

what if the added material turns out to be lossy? would the recording be banned? after all, the concert recording initself isnt lossy.

[freezer]

Originally Posted by Chrisedge

........Freezer, I actually don't mind you trading the way YOU want,.................

Very condescending of you, but I don't remembering asking for your permission, ok?

[GRC]

Originally Posted by freezer

How soon was it that you posted in the show thread and then started this thread?

35 minutes??? correct, you waited a whole 35 minutes before your pink panties got bunched up......

(for a show that's 31 years old? No wonder TooleMan hasn't responded to you, he hasn't stopped laughing yet.)

Because it was weighing heavily on my mind, as the 'watermark' was still rolling around in my head whilst Anderson, Howe and Co were half an hour into their set.......

"Pink Panties bunched up" ??? Oh, come on, leave out the school yard insults......

OK, the show's 31 years old. I won't last another 31 years, so I can't wait that long again. I'd LIKE to hear a clean version now, but I'm not DEMANDING a clean version. I'm ASKING if there is one (and there appears to be, at Dime.... Thanks to that poster).

[GRC]

Originally Posted by freezer

And somebody please, please, please get GRC an unblemished recording of that show direct from the "master tape"... And my friend, I really wasn't trying to be mean to you, but waiting only 35 minutes before you got hysterical about not getting a 31 year old show within moments of your learning that it exists, because you didn't like something you got for free...a bit much, when a simple request would have gotten you what you want. I sure hope you get what you need. I think I have a copy from the same source that TooleMan's version, (acquired in a trade through TTD) and if no one gets it to you, I'll look for it now.

I'm looking for it on Dime as we speak, so I may get there before your appeal bears fruit.

I thought my request WAS a simple one, with a lack of hysteria..... but there ya go. It's all in the 'nuance', apparently ....

[Thulani]

Interesting thread. Some people are clearly in need of another hobby.

[AAR.oner]

fwiw GRC, yer post/question showed no "demanding" or "entitlement" to myself [or to the majority of us i have a feelin ]

[paddington]

Tooleman dubbed himself speaking his name over a concert tape.

that's all I really need to know.

[Five]

its computer generated or taken from duke nukem or something. duke nukem voice on a Yes show

[sysoverload]

Originally Posted by AAR.oner

i hear what yer sayin GRC, i find someone "marking" a recording [and especially one they didn't record & added in post] to be ridiculous and against the philosophy of this site...however, it'd be nearly impossible to police, since if we officially banned it certain folks would then purposely add em without saying so in the info, just to prove they can [cuz they're immature idjuts]

You could ban if a post show watermark is announced in the lineage, and ban if there's a watermark on a remaster of a source that already circulates without that added sound. If a taper or trader has the only copy of a source, and wants to add sounds after the show with a mic and/or audio editor, you will probably never know that it didn't happen at the show. Adding a rule about watermarks won't get rid of the problem entirely, but at least you'll narrow the field considerably to those who tape and/or possess sources that don't circulate. Maybe lots of tapers will start to do this, but this way at least the stuff that's already circulating is protected from further degradation.

Save the mash-ups for flash streaming sites and elsewhere, or at least make a separate forum where people can add their own recorded rhythm guitar track to a power trio show, or add sounds of them hitting a bong, etc.

saying we can't ban when someone states that they did add a watermark, or when it can be proven they added a watermark to a remaster of an already circulating source, because someone might lie is not very wise. what if someone put up a dvd and they gave the lineage one way, but it turned out they were lying about re-encoding the video, and they posted later on that they rendered it twice, and that everyone who downloaded it and the site were suckers. what if they say that they were then just joking about re-encoding, and that it was really only rendered once, and someone re-uploads the show to the tracker. then they take that back and say that, no, it was rendered twice. the show goes up, the show gets pulled, and on and on, because nobody can prove that it was only rendered once. does that mean that we can't enforce any kind of rule about encoding only once? because there might be some jokester who wants to fuck with the site? if the only rules that existed were the ones that could be enforced upon download by analysis with a piece of software, then several rules would vanish. can you always tell if a show transferred with an audio CD in the lineage is a re-extraction? optical drives have a wide range of possible offsets. someone could pull the same stunt and say their previously uncirculated show has an extra CD gen than what was stated in the lineage, and that everyone who downloaded it is a sucka. some people are gonna lie about stuff, but that shouldn't mean that certain rules which are based mostly on trust shouldn't be in place. you can still filter out some of the pollution, but you'll never get all of it if someone is bent on deception and practical jokes.

Detecting Hidden Information from Watermarked
Signal using Granulation Based Fitness Approximation

http://davarynejad.com/Resources1/WSC%2708-Draft.pdf

[dave91169]

Originally Posted by jameskg

lame

Originally Posted by jameskg

I think this is one of the lamest things I've ever seen done, here.

why do you say that Jim? he's really just trying to stop all his good work being sold back to you SILVER disc buyers at outrageous prices...surely this is helping to save you guys your hard-earned cash? if you KNOW the silver is just a copy of this then you won't have to buy it right?

calling an uploader "lame" seems a bit unnecessary...he is sharing shows with the rest of us, who, like me, without the know-how and time to do this work would otherwise not get at all.

and really it's just a 1/2 second long...and we can always downlaod the pre-remaster if jon with the DAT tapes ups a copy for us.
dave.